Okay. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. You can finish your thought, if you want real quick, Steve. Yeah. Did I have one other thing here? So there was something sinful about Jesus? Okay. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Id have to respond individually. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. Instead, they describe Ezra bringing scrolls to Jerusalem and a process of later works being written that gradually developed into what they call a relatively complete Jewish Bible. But they also acknowledge some Jews accepted the deuterocanonicals as Scripture and that many Christian communities embraced these works as part of the Bible.. Something went wrong with your request. And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. Thats all I got. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). Since I dont believe in the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura, I dont have to prove these dogmas from scripture alone. My goal today is to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. Enough Jews were reading the deuterocanonical books that a leading rabbi at the time had to declare that they were not Scripture. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. I dont know how you would feel. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. Good to hear from you again. And something else that the Pope says in the declaration is not infallible. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . Of course, that is not what we are debating today. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. Sure. Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. Steve Christie also has his own website. So Steves defending the affirmative. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. Facebook My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. And I already cited Greek scholars like Bill Mounce and New Testament scholars, like Richard Bauckham, who agree with me that adelphi has a broader semantic range than what Steve has brought up here. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? The same in any intellectual study. The late twentieth-century Christian apologist Francis A. Schaeffer saw Christian apologetics as " pre-evangelism " - a way to prepare the mind and heart for the Christian message (the Gospel). Anything else you might disagree with? Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. All right. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. So probably honestly that one. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. Thats just how debates work. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. If she is not righteous, then Jesus did not redeem her and she is still dead in her trespasses and sins. Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. Heres my thought on that. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. He might say that its unlikely, he doesnt accept it, but theres no contradiction also if she is thankful to God for being preemptively saved from sin. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. Yeah. Steve Christie also has his own website. Okay. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. . The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. Look, weve got 737 people watching and only 492 likes. steve.christie@phmloans.com. How do we know that theyre brothers? Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. Oh, its for me? And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. I already have. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? You mean the son of John? We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. All righty. Do you know him? Thanks for the super chat. This is not the rule. H. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. No, it doesnt. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. Itll change your life, no doubt. When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. It can mean half-sister, stepsister, sister-in-law.. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. I say this by way of concession, not of command. Some rabbis opposed the scriptural status of six booksRuth, Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solo-mon, and Ezekiel. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. Same with Matthew 28. It says in the plural, May their camp be a desolation. None of the authors of the deuterocanonical books refer to a delineated list of writings (Hebrew, Ketuvim) within a closed Hebrew canon that did not include their own works. That has not been handed down to us but that she was assumed in heaven was even though [inaudible 01:06:39]. So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. I think it provides strong evidence for it. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. It is a matter of which authority are you willing to submit to. September 16, 2018 by Randal. When the New Testament writers wish to convey female non-sibling relatives, such as Elizabeth and Mary, they chose other Greek words, such as [foreign language 00:01:39] or [foreign language 00:01:39] So also, Luke 14:12 and 21:16, where the evangelist uses different Greek words to distinguish relatives from brothers. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. Paul offers, he says in First Corinthians 7:5 through seven, Do not refuse one another, except by agreement for a season, to devote yourselves to prayer so that youre not tempted by lack of self control. This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. Submit to my authority. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? Can you repeat the question real quick? So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. For example, Jesus said among those born of women none was greater than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28)and John was not a Pharisee. Well, not necessarily. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? And they did not want people following them. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. Born Steve will point to Jesus in sacred scripture. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). Did their authors believe God had stopped speaking decades or centuries earlier? So theres lots of bad arguments. Okay. And so in seeing these Marian dogmas that they dont contradict Scripture, we can move forward in our understanding of authority to see what the church Christ established really has taught and given to us for salvation. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. Sure. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. Okay, Trent. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. Im throwing you a bone here. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. We have to remember that. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. Oh, youre on mute. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. . The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. I just want to make sure. So thats also a bad argument. Does the Bible teach that no human being has ever been assumed into heaven? My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. . No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. Good, because you know what? But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. Okay. 15. 17. So we have to read the context. . Christie claims that Jesus declaration to the Pharisees about all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar was actually an endorsement of the Protestant Old Testament canon. In 2001, Butler signed Christie on November 28, to replace Wade Richey who was demoted after struggling on field goals. They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. This has led biblical scholars to make a variety of proposals for the identity of this Zechariah. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. So lets stick with what scripture actually supports. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. Thank you very much, Steve. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? 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Why would I believe that because youre a nice guy podcasts and showed!
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